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400 Cummins issue

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valleyfarmer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valleyfarmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 400 Cummins issue
    Posted: 05 Jul 2014 at 11:38pm
Fuel going into radiator. Pull heads three cylinders in all different stages have a good 6-8 oz of diesel just sitting on top of the piston. Take three heads to place says there good? Any input before i get a second opponian?
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DMiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2014 at 6:30am
You have bad injector cups in the head(s), these are copper and seal the combustion chamber/fuel/jacket water systems away from each other.
Go to a Cummins reman distributor and get all three heads exchanged. Many times a non Cummins rebuilder will miss those, not hard to overlook, be careful how you install the injectors back in the reman heads, I prefer to dip them in motor oil or STP coating all the O-rings then set to the cups, take the handle of a hammer sitting atop the injector and push them gently but sharply into the cups, they should snap into place and not squish, any failure to do so can be indication a o-ring rolled or the cup has distorted. Torque to specs in small increments of tightening until reach full torque(if memory serves 35#)

These are just FYI: look at ALL the head bolts, any with stretch marks, any with any rust damage or any with any form of distortion go in the trash. Take each push rod, holding it upright allow it to drop a few inches to a solid surface(brick, concrete) sliding thru your hand, they should ring, any that goes thud are oil filled and are also trash, this happens most often to the injector push rods and can damage the cam while creating a engine miss.

Edited by DMiller - 06 Jul 2014 at 6:37am
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Mactractor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mactractor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2014 at 6:37pm
I knew you would be the man to answer this post when I saw it Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote littlemarv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2014 at 8:17pm
Usually, I pull the injectors with the cooling system still full. When you pull the injector with the bad cup, the coolant comes with it!
The mechanic always wins.

B91131, WC23065, WD89101, CA29479, B1, Early B10, HB212, 416H
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2014 at 8:59pm
If he is getting a lot of fuel to all cylinders when the heads come off something is causing the cup damage, poor installation (sorry to say and not trying to lay blame) of injectors(I have been accomplice to this in the past) is about the only way. Knew of quite a few that tried to torque the injectors back into the heads using the retaining bracket, many cut O-rings doing so, only the pop in method has ever worked well for techs that rebuilt these engines. I had 855Ci (H, NH, NT) Cummins overhaul certification for over 15 years, 1160 (K series)for additional 10.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valleyfarmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2014 at 9:18pm
Yeah that's what I was figuring like I said three cylinders had diesel in them I drained the coolent this winter tell I could get to the project i didn't want to swell o rings. We bought the truck running good no issues. Started doing this after probably 150 hrs of run time. As far as I can tell original heads on the motor. When I took injectors out coolent on injesctors.

Just wanted to bring it up cause the people we took the heads to said everything checked out good an I should look else where but there is no where to look. It doesn't have a fuel warmer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2014 at 9:35pm
Coolant on the injectors themselves is failed cups, no other way to get there, just time to swap heads. Last I purchased exchange from Cummins were not that high, get an upper end gasket set, with new water tube O-rings, head gaskets etc. Use Crisco on the O-rings, water soluble and won't swell the rings, use no added sealants on the head gaskets, the block surface or the bottom of the heads. Try not to touch any regions around the water jacket seal rings on the gaskets and clean the block to as dry as possible. I use a syphon blow gum to suck the residual water/oil from the head bolt holes during cleanup, soaking out with a rag will also do along with blowing air across the holes to fully drain them. Cummins recommends 90wt on the threads when reassembling, I have also used International Compound No.2 from Detroit Diesel and heavy lithium grease, lube only the threads and the head bolt washers under the hex on the bolts. Torque the heads from fully snug in three semi-equal steps to full tension, stagger pattern cris/cross across the head as you torque them up, they should not chatter coming to torque.

I cannot stress enough, ANY distortions, strain marks, and kind of questionable look to the head bolts, throw them in the trash! If you don't have a 855 manual now is the time to procure one. At final torque on an older engine I always overtorqued by 15 pounds on the head bolts, they all leak coolant after time but this seemed to slow it some.

Edited by DMiller - 06 Jul 2014 at 9:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2014 at 9:41pm
This will give an idea of prices you will be looking for, go to a truck dealer near to you if not a Cummins engine company shop directly available.

http://www.cumminspartsdirect.com/Category/1715-cylinder-heads.aspx
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valleyfarmer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valleyfarmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2014 at 9:55pm
Sweet thanks I do all of our farms mechanic work. An parts searching most of the time parts searching is the biggest head ache. This will help
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2014 at 4:35am
Biggest consideration is take the time to do it right the first time, repeat visits to a singular repair can be more frustrating in the long run. 150 hours is only a few weeks run time for most machines, is possible someone else was in there and did the damage ahead of you in a patch job repair.

Forgot to mention, there is a center rocker box bolt hole that most of us old hands use for a lifting handle hole. Take a 9/16 USS thread bolt around 6-8 inches long, (I am thinking that was the size as been awhile) weld a cross bar to the top after cutting the hex head away big enough for two hands. when you go to install the heads lift them with the handle, try not to scoot them across the head gasket/block deck when sitting them as that can damage the gasket insert seals. Lots of little nuances in working these style engines. Injectors don't go in until the heads are torqued. What year/ series engine do you have Small cam, Big cam, E engine? Probable Top Stop injectors if later model Big Cam, these get a 5" pound set during the overhead adjustment, is basically elimination of any light slack in the valve train but still not 'tight'. Engine have Jakes on it? Another consideration if does.

Edited by DMiller - 07 Jul 2014 at 4:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valleyfarmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2014 at 12:44pm
Oh yeah that handle idea is sweet being those were pretty heavy. I iv done heads before just not a three piece, it is very likely the heads might have been gone thru before since its a 85 GMC general with factory engine an we are third owner.

Its an ntc 400 doesn't say small or big can anywhere so I assume small. Yes Jakes are on it I ordered a Manuel on line as a CD just got it today. But still no heads the truck shop is a little slow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2014 at 3:35pm
Intake valves .011, exhaust .023; the jakes .018 for settings. The service manual will show you how to set the crossheads properly, DO NOT SET THE LOCK NUT while on the valve stems. The valve sets are done as running mate to the injectors, I will dig out my cheat sheet, you will need a 1 5/16" socket to bar the engine over, on the accessory drive pulley nut. You set the Jake clearances last and will have to move the engine possibly three times. As long as the Exhaust crosshead is loose to the valves the set can be made. Will need a set of Jacobs Brake gaskets to go with the set for the heads, is a separate set and not a Cummins product, truck shop should have them.

Will be a Big Cam engine, small cam discontinued 1976/77. Call around to the tool truck drivers, check with local garages as to who sells them SnapOn, you will need an overhead wrench, I will dig mine out and post the picture. Will have the p/n so may be able to find a used one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2014 at 4:08pm
This is my collection of Cummins overhead stuff, not to include the old style injector dial indicator set from MAC tool:



Both the overhead wrenches from Snap-On, the shorter one is an older version and is M1319 7/8" with a 3/4" insert, the longer one is newer and is M1322 3/4" and is what you are looking for as to the height off the rocker arms to clear the intake. The small T is Cummins p/n 3376592 and is the 5 inch pound torque wrench for top-stop injectors. These are now over thirty years old.

Get ribbon feeler gauges, .011 and .023, bend the last 1 1/2" to 45 degrees, take a .018 out of the set, bend it 90 degrees at the width of the foot in the jake boxes that wraps around the exhaust rocker arm, I am thinking around 1" is all I ever needed.

By memory as I cannot find my manual, firing order 153624, stack the running mates:
153
624, when the valves on 1 are loose(both) adjust valves on 1 the injector on 6 and so on, takes two full rotations to set the overhead, timing marks on the accessory drive will be shown in the manual and relate to where to start, I believe we always started at 2/5 on the indicator.

Edited by DMiller - 09 Jul 2014 at 4:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2014 at 4:24pm
Top stop injectors are nothing to be scared of. They are essentially 'Zero Lash', with the cam follower on the low spot of the lobe the injector will be at the highest point(prepping to fire), it is there you set the rocker arm adjustment to zero lash or the 5 inch pounds. I am thinking at 2/5 on the accessory drive you are at 1/6 as to settings, I will work on finding that manual.

I own one of all of these, they are life savers if not time savers, not a bad price on fleabay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Snap-On-Cummins-Wrench-Set-M1329-Fuel-Pump-S6107-Fan-Hub-M1322-Valve-adjusting-/171377711933?hash=item27e6e85b3d&item=171377711933&pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr


Edited by DMiller - 09 Jul 2014 at 4:32pm
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